Habitat Mayhem

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This is a page discussing the file named mayhem which was taken from Chip Morningstars Habitat Archives.

TODO: Summarize the situation being discussed in the email thread.

TODO: sort this out into something legible later on.

SUBJ: Theft
FROM: Celebrindl  08/30/87   S#: 105859
The big question.... or is it?

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Habitat is a GAME, folks. (It's even
called the Game Disk 3.)

Earlier today -or last night, I misremember which- Cornelius got bumped just
after setting down a gun. He left, the gun stayed. Being a consciencious
Avatar, I picked up his litter...and being a poor Avatar, I sold it for the
money.

Since that time, I have gotten a lot of SH_T from Cornelius and Osgood about
returning the gun or money. Including one cryptic letter: "You have a lot to
learn."

Now, it is my interpretation that theft is part of the game...there is even a
list of the "best" (or most active) thieves in Habitat. So why do I feel that
my mortal soul is in danger?  I was warned that "you don't know who you're
dealing with. Check his ID." (So what, I have a Vienna ID on a few names,
too..d. the most it means to me is that Cornelius is Inhouse staff.)

I also don't recall seeing any signs saying "There are Avatars who are also
GOD. Do not mess with them, or else!" We are all equal in Habitat.. more or
less.. I have had everything stolen from me but my tokens.. and I, in turn,
and taken a few things from others. Not ONCE did I say "you don't know who
you're dealing with." I usually just swore good-naturedly (offscreen)..
attempted to retrieve the item..  failed.. and went onward.

There is a certain amount of trust in this game.. sure.. but it is a GAME! We
are testing it.. true.. but it is a GAME!

If Cornelius and Osgood can't handle good-natured "handling" (as a kender
would say).. they'd better watch out..  because I'm not alone. (I say 9 names
on that Thieves' board.. the 10th was MANY AVATARS!) I am not alone.. and I
doubt I have commited any original atrocities.. (give me time.. I'm still
new.)

I cold say much more on this subject..  but I'll leave space for responses..
for I really wish to see what others think on this.. do I deserve cancellation
for pawning someone else's gun? Do I deserve HARASSMENT for it?  (Yes, I used
that term on purpose..  since it's much a violation of Terms.) Please help us
decide.
   Scott D. Gries
   Remote Staffer
----------------------------
SUBJ: Sorry, Cele..
FROM: Bonnie      08/30/87   S#: 122417
..someone tried to steal my box and I didn't think it was fun.

This IS a game..but why the need to steal? Just because someone took something
that belonged to you is not a reason for you to behave that way. Two wrongs
don't make a right.

There's enough of that kind of crap in 'real' life..why bring it online?
----------------------------
SUBJ: D&D
FROM: Celebrindl  08/30/87   S#: 123175
It's paart of the Game.. just think of it as D&D, which it is.. role playing..
thieves are part of the game.
----------------------------
SUBJ: Well..
FROM: AndrewG2    08/30/87   S#: 122303
I don't like stealing too much either, BUT if you find an Avatar that makes it
a "Habit" just pass the word to all of us nicer Avatars that are trustworthy
and we won't invite them to our hottub parties!!!!!
----------------------------
SUBJ: Harrassment!
FROM: RAOULTFOOL  08/30/87   S#: 126023
You do not deserve harrassment.  This is a game.  They can try and get back at
you but I don't remember the rules, what rules, saying no stealing.  Are the
demi-gods starting up again.  Play the way they want!  Poop on them!
----------------------------
SUBJ: Practice !
FROM: Becky       08/30/87   S#: 33716
I think of it as practice for when the general 'masses' invade Habitat.. Do
you honestly think Q-Link will add Stealing as a violation of the Terms of
Service?  I am now learning what NOT to do so I won't get robbed in the
future...

Maybe someone could open a Pet Store that specializes in Dobermans :D
----------------------------
SUBJ: The Buddy System
FROM: RJScott     08/30/87   S#: 126060
I usually try to travel with a "buddy" -- then while I'm busily showing off my
"stuff" my buddy stands guard over the treasures that it's taken me time and
effort to amass.

Just last night I bumped into someone with an aquarium...one that I would love
to have...after helping him get a box (was that the one with not enough tokens
to get one??) I showed him how to put his items in the box, and the box in his
pocket. All this while to Avatar(esses?) were trying to make off with his
"stuff."

Perhaps after we're all more familiar with protecting ourselves and our goods
a little more daring and practical jokes can be expected, but at this early
stage it sure puts a damper on the fun for a brand new Avatar just
entering....to have his or her "prize possessions" taken at the first
opportunity.
----------------------------
SUBJ: Well said Qpapa!
FROM: CLB         08/30/87   S#: 126258
Give the new folks a break!! Geez! My first night in I had everything stolen,
except my tokens and gun, and even MY HEAD!!! Geez, felt funny wearing the odd
head that was left over!

While I do not approve of theft, and neither does Habitat (or why in the RANT
such a big deal over the procecution of the 4 thieves that made off with the
Amulet?? Hmmmmmmmmmm, Cele? answer that one?) I ASSUME that there will be
enough stuff for us to "pick-up" along this world from other "things" and
persons who are NOT our fellow Avatars to keep the best thieves amongst us
happy, even you light-fingers-Cele!  Hehehe!

(um Bonnie, did you forget the key YOU, um, grabbed from me?? Hehehe!)
----------------------------
SUBJ: Attitude adjustment
FROM: Onyx        08/30/87   S#: 126322
As long as everyone is putting their 2 cents worth in, I might  as well also.

While Habitat may be a GAME, our purpose here is not  just to PLAY.  We are
testing the game before it is released.   That means we experiment with what
our Avatars are able to do, and what they cannot do.  This -MAY- at times,
include GETting things that dont belong to you.  I myself, GOT something from
Chameleon's bag that she had PUT down once.  When I found that I could GET it,
I promptly PUT it back.   Now, I do admit I have HaagenDasz's fish tank,
(which I'll trade for a cat gladly :D )   and I did take  SkyLine's gun once.
But to make a habit of GETting what isnt yours really puts a negative image on
an Avatar.

And, just as some people online are treated with a bit more respect, because
of who they are, so (most likely) shall it be in Habitat.  The people thhat
have slaved & sweated for the last 18 months (or so) on this project are due
our respect.  This is no God-Playing here, just a simple fact of life.  In
many respects, QLink and Habitat are just  like the "real" world.  Some folks
are insignificant, some arent.  Get used to it, and deal with  it.
----------------------------
SUBJ: Thief..
FROM: AGGIE       08/30/87   S#: 11369
This is my personal opinion...and I do have a right to say without attacking
me. I feel this way...if it is left and you do not know who it belongs to then
it is possible to pawn and/or keep. On the other hand if I seen this person
drop it and then turned to stone or dumped , I would pick it up and keep it
for them. I know you are saying 'yeah...Mrs Goody-Two- Shoes' But I treat
fellow friend as that. It might be a game...but it is not right to steal
...and seeing the person it belongs to is stealing. I may be fool but I live
by one rule. I put myself in the other persons' shoes and ask myself how would
I feel if this happened to me. If you are interested in taking things to the
pawn shop for money, there are many trash cans and a city dump to check. I
myself will not steal as it is not my type of a game. I will however take
advantage of things left behind that I do not know the owners name.
----------------------------
SUBJ: harrassment
FROM: Aelora      08/30/87   S#: 126478
I have also received comments of a harrassing nature regarding what some
users/avatars consider unsportsmanlike conduct in Habitat.  Come on, guys,
it's only a game - and it's free for you right now... so what's the gripe?

I wonder if any of the gripers are so innocent they haven't also stooped to
petty thievery or some other behavior...  <?>

I think threats of cancellation because somebody inconvenienced you is a clear
sign of immature behavior.

Too bad we don't have an IGNORE mode for such silly childish avatars...
----------------------------
SUBJ: Lets all have fun
FROM: Lady Beau   08/30/87   S#: 126674
and stop this nonsense..

Last nite I saw a phone sitting all alone and no one was in the room except
for one person and I asked them if the phone belonged to them and they said NO
so I took it... I purchased a phone the other day also and I have two phones
now.

If someone leaves something behind and does not come back to get it they
probably did not want it...

Lets all just have fun with habitat and stop all this bickering....
----------------------------
SUBJ: Theft
FROM: SkyLine     08/30/87   S#: 126791
As I recall reading somewhere, those who engage in misdeeds are at risk of
punishment. One in particular that comes to mind, is having one's head turned
to that of a goat, to warn the other avatars that this person has broken the
law in some way. This tells me that theft, and all the ecetera's that go with
it were anticipated; not necessarily allowed or encouraged, but a definite
possibility to be guarded against.

Being watchful of thieves gives an added challenge to the game, which I kind
of enjoy. In fact without some thievery, an element of interest would be
lacking. I have a gun to give me some measure of protection, even if only used
as a threat. And if you read carefully, nowhere have I said that I wouldn't
steal something, if I thought it was necessary to my survival, or it would
further my ability to use Habitat. ;)  Be warned..:D

As with the other responses, this is just my opinion..
----------------------------
SUBJ: What bothers me....
FROM: Chameleon   08/31/87   S#: 15787
about the rampant thieving is that eventually Habitat will go public. We all
know that some of the cancelled juvenile delinquents have reverted to their
original legal names and are still among us. The animal heads are a good idea,
but I think habitual thieves need more severe punishment. Perhaps losing all
of THEIR possessions and a series of accidents? That might discourage some of
the more aggressive criminals. At the same time, there will certainly be a
number of very young members exploring Habitat, and negative reinforcement of
the habit of stealing would be good for them both here and in the real world.

RJScott, were you practising last night when you tried to take something from
me?   ;)

Also, Onyx neglected to mention that while she was getting the item from my
bag, I was getting my gun out of my pocket, which may have had something to do
with her decision to put the object back.  8>

Habitat is indeed a land of opportunity. Two-thirds of the Midwest QSyndicate
has already discussed the possibility of starting a protection racket. (If it
works out like all of our other plots, no one has to worry about it.)

I suspect that  shortly before Habitat becomes available to the general
membership, we will be reminded to behave in a manner becoming to QGUIDES.  It
would be much easier just to start out that way, than to develop an avatar
with bad habits that will have to be broken.

Maybe I'll rent the vacant building downtown and open a printshop that
specializes in Wanted posters.  Or maybe one of the Bureacrats-In-a-Box could
take care of that.  "Beware of"   "Shoot on sight" ?????
----------------------------
SUBJ: Pilfering...
FROM: John L      08/31/87   S#: 127387
Even *I* tried my hand at it!! LOL!

I walked up to someone that was carrying tokens and GOT them.  I checked and
it was only a hundred tokens tho, so I walked up to them again and PUT them
back into the persons hand.  I don't think that they even knew what was going
on.  :D

I WANT MY FISH TANK BACK!!

How did it leave my turf?  I didn't take it out of there.
----------------------------
SUBJ: Learning to steal on Habitat--
FROM: TempB       08/31/87   S#: 127483
Now Ima goin out in de real world and steal me a set of real wheels.
VVAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRROOO OOOOOOOOMMMMMMM!!

**************************************************
SUBJ: GETing and stealing
FROM: Aelora      09/02/87   S#: 9611
I would like to suggest that avatars NOT be able to GET any item being held
<in the hand> of an avatar, just as an avatar cannot GET items out of another
avatar's pocket.

But if ya put it down - it may be fair game!

This would help alleviate the thieving being done against people carrying or
using items in their hands.

Seems to me that in New York or LA, if you put something down on the ground,
it may not be there 5 seconds later...

**************************************************
SUBJ: Self Defense..
FROM: Bonnie      09/04/87   S#: 76453
..has become a necessary part of Habiworld! So, I have purchased a
knife..(nope, still can't bring myself to touch a gun :\ )

Be warned..if anyone tries to take my stuff, I will injure them!

Bon the Blade
----------------------------
SUBJ: Amen!
FROM: RJScott     09/04/87   S#: 76753
I have purchased a Shovel. Make that TWO of them. While Sam Spade I ain't,
I'll not hesitate to bury the Avatar who messes with me.   ;D
----------------------------
SUBJ: Hmmm
FROM: AndrewG2    09/05/87   S#: 80645
Can you do that? I tried to hurt someone that was messing with me with the
club I bought and I got no response. =:\
----------------------------
SUBJ: Weapons
FROM: SkyLine     09/05/87   S#: 81866
Seems to depend on where you are. Many, if not most places I've been in,
appear to be weapons-free-zones. I've heard that weapons will work in the
woods, and possibly the desert, but I haven't tested it out yet. Perhaps
someone else knows for sure..

**************************************************
SUBJ: HabiDeath.. :(
FROM: Caterwaul   09/07/87   S#: 106317
I've finally done it!  Gone and gotten killed.. It's not as pleasant an
experience as I thought it would be..  No HabiHeaven.. No Angels.. No 'Find
your way back to Populopolis'.. Oh well.. Anyway after I got killed, I checked
my possessions.. :\  You're looking at one POOR avatar.. EVERYTHING I had
disappeared.. And I happened to be carryin' all my money at the time..  :'(
Anyone out there give donations?  If not, you can help me by doin' one thing..
If ya find one of my lil "Advanturers WANTED!" papers.. Don't erase it.. I
have a hard enough time keepin' up with all of 'em.. <And I *AM* serious about
that adventure.. > For 50 Tokens.. You get a chance at winning at LEAST 300...
More if we get more players.. :)
                 Caterwaul,
                  the Bum..

P.S. Anyone spare 3 Tokens so I can go buy a drink down at Kelly's?  I need
one.. :(
----------------------------
SUBJ: Oh yeah...
FROM: Caterwaul   09/08/87   S#: 106442
Sky Dragon.. :\  Sorry 'bout your paints.. Your compass.. And your
flashlight.. :(  It'll be the first things I buy with the tokens I get in the
future..
                     Ele
**************************************************
SUBJ: Clearing something up
FROM: Celebrindl  09/16/87   S#: 101376
I just recently was informed of how big an issue the death of Caterwaul seems
to be, and my association with it. I want to make some things PERFECTLY clear
(I hope;) so that people don't get the wrong idea.

Caterwaul was NOT cold-bloodedly murdered by yours truly. True, his death was
caused by bullets from the gun I was holding, but I had NEVER intending on
even harming him!

Both Caterwaul (and his father) can attest that he had his knife out, and was
stabbing away at me at the same time I was shooting him. We were testing to
see if there was a REASON the Weapon-freeze zones appeared inactive.

Neither of us thought to check our health after the first shot or two. The
first indication I had of any danger was Caterwaul's abrupt disappearance on
my screen, and his father ESPing me saying "You killed him!"

Apparently he had checked his health and found himself "Near Death" but
couldn't say anything in time to warn me. :(

After checking my health, I find I am no longer in "peak of health" although
I'll keep the exact state secret. ;)

I knew that an Avatar lost most, or all, of his/her goods when killed, so I
certainly didn't want Cater dead, because I knew he had so much!

Only one good thing came of this, we realized (later) that I should have
gotten whatever he had in his hands (his knife, in this case) and did not.

So if you are planning on killing someone for what they are holding, better
wait until it's fixed, or until the other Avatar PUTs it down.

I hope this clears up some misconceptions.
        Cele
**************************************************
SUBJ: Theft Counter
FROM: Celebrindl  09/17/87   S#: 71308
For the information of those who had not noticed, the "Greatest Thieves"
catagory (whatever it's called) in the Hall of Records counts the number of
times an Avatar GETs something from another Avatar's hands.

As you might now realize, this does NOT necessarily give an accurate count to
the number of actual thefts an Avataar has made.

For example:
Celebrindl has, according to the Hall of records, 7 Thefts (probably 8 by
tomorrow, since I GOT something that already belonged to me BACK from another
Avatar). However, the one and ONLY theft I actually have under my belt is that
d*mned gun of Cornelius' and THAT wasn't even counted since I GOT it from the
ground, not his hands.

So, just a polite message to those who hadn't realized it: Don't plan revenge
on someone who appears high on the Theft list.. he may just be a poor Avatar
who hasn't the sense to keep his things in his pocket and needs to GET them
from other Avatars all the time.
    Cele
**************************************************
SUBJ: MAJOR Theft!  :D
FROM: Onyx        09/17/87   S#: 70970
Hehehehe  :D  I know -someone- isnt pleased by this, but I'm kinda tickled
pink!

Yes, I, Onyx Blackstarr, STOLE.  In fact, I stole what I believe to be, 99% of
this Avatar's possessions...

Whom did I steal from?  None other than Celebrindl.

Why did I steal?  Well, lets just say it was fun. :D

Will I give it back?  Yeah....  when I get around to it.  :D

Will I give it ALL back?   I dunno.. :D I  found a few things I kinda liked.
:D

Tune in tomorrow, same Ava-Time, same Ava-Channel....
;>
**************************************************
SUBJ: Violence and Rewards
FROM: Greg P      09/17/87   S#: 75892
As a Priest, Social Worker, Psychotherapist, and member of the human race.  I
am deeply concerned about Habitat's apparent lack of ethics.

It is deplorable that a game would REWARD you for KILLING and/or STEALING from
another person.  Aren't Avatars supposed to be extensions of ourselves?

How is this done?

By posting the guilty Avatar's name in the Hall of Records and by the fact
that weapons are READILY available in almost all of the "Vendroids".

I *formally* protest this.
   ````````
I was of the opinion that Habitat was to have been an alternative to violence
in computer games by giving the person a constructive challenge or adventure.

As a Priest and a person of ethics, I can not condone this "reward for
violence."

Please remove the "Killing Lists".

Please remove *all* weapons or means of violence.

Children learn by what they do.  As it stands, Habitat will teach them that
killing/violence is good, fun, and you can be rewarded for it as well.

Father Gregory Pumroy, MSW, ACSW
----------------------------
SUBJ: Killing Lists
FROM: Celebrindl  09/17/87   S#: 76530
It was my thought that the lists for the Most Dangerous were there to WARN
other Avatars.. not to praise those on the lists, sorta like a Most Wanted
List.
----------------------------
SUBJ: How you see things...
FROM: AGGIE       09/17/87   S#: 118185
I just see that portion of the hall of records as a 'WATCH OUT FOR'.
----------------------------
SUBJ: Very good point!
FROM: SaltheartQ  09/17/87   S#: 122901
I must first say that I think you have a valid point. About Violence/Reward.
But I must also say that If one is going to view Habitat in the
Learning/Teaching aspect, I for one would hope that it would refelect True and
acurate facts to those who learn from it. As sad as it may be, the world
(Outside of Habitat and Q-Link) that we live in is not always a Peaceful
place.  I do not have children myself. But if I ever do I would like thier
Learning experience to prepare them for the world they face. Unfortunatly
killing, death, and violence are a part of life,again unfortunatly a part that
is far to often Glorified in some information/education mediums.  Even as you
mentioned Avatars are indeed to be an extension of "ourselves". If we are
representing ourselves then is it not best to represent ourselves truthfully?
And one more point if I may, Habitat is as a GAME. I did not see this alleged
DEATH OF AN AVATAR, but I would hazard to guess that even as he died there
probably was no blood or gross stuff as can all to often be seen in the movies
and on TV, and as you mentioned even in some Computer Games. TO sum up I feel
that Habitat would make a Fantastic learning tool for children. IT is an
exciting and inovative idea with facets that have yet to be uncovered. I feel
it will grow in many areas and it is an important contribution to the growth
of computer comunications.

Geez this sound like a speeech!!  not my intention! :)
                      Salty
----------------------------
SUBJ: Not Fun.
FROM: Tiresias    09/17/87   S#: 5273
I agree with Greg.  I do NOT think that DEATH and THEFT should be a part of
HABITAT.  It should be a place of escape, not a place of vicarious expression
of violence and illegal activities.   Such things are purely gratuitous and
NOT NECESSARY.

Avatars and Oracle seem to represent such peaceful identities.  Maybe we need
an optional CRIMEWORLD for those with such a twist of mind.

HABITAT should NOT represent the REAL world, but rather what it COULD BE if
people lived together in harmony with their environment rather than in fear of
others.
----------------------------
SUBJ: Another opinion
FROM: Onyx        09/18/87   S#: 95779
Habitat is (as we were previously told) "an interactive role playing game".

Now, not to get on a podium or anything, as a Guild Host, my business here on
Qlink is Role Playing Games.  And in those games, there is a certain element
of danger.  Weapons, theft, dying, and removed violence are a way of life for
the Role Playing Enthusiast.

In many aspects, Habitat resembles the "real" world.  And, like the "real
world", theft and death are an everyday occurance.

I can foresee a time in Habitat when we run "adventures", and go on quests.
Part of that adventuring may  be battling monsters, thieves, etc...  Without
weapons, we are easy prey.

In real life, let me say, I own no weapons (besides a Louisville Slugger
baseball bat and a set of Chef's knives).  In real liife, I do not steal or
kill.  But  in a RPG (Role Playing Game) I can, and DO, do such things.

It's all  part of the game.

Just another opinion...
                           -=* Onyx *=-
----------------------------
SUBJ: Ethics/Business
FROM: OSGOOD      09/18/87   S#: 109739
I hate guns and violence and would prefer to have them excluded from HABITAT.
Nevertheless, this place is here to make money and there is no question that
violence "sells" in the entertainment field. It will be expected/desired by a
great deal of the people who will be paying to use HABITAT. I don't condone
it.... simply pointing out the practical matter of this being a for-profit
business.

Again, remember I agree with Greg P's feelings that it is wrong. By the way,
as I am one of the Avatars who has died I can verify that it is not "bloody".
It is more of a financial setback than anything else.

Nevertheless, there ought to be a way to accomodate the people who want to be
killers and thieves and also help those who are peaceloving. Right now there
are very generous rewards for violent acts. Stealing is much easier than
earning objects/tokens. Perhaps a similarly atttractive way of reward those
who are always peaceful and never steal could be developed if folks provided
suggestions on appropriate rewards that would make it as attrative to be
ethical as it is now attractive to be a scoundrel and "killer".  (Killing is
actually just a form of stealing as the avatar does not really die but rather
loses most everything he owns.) In any event, any suggestions for rewards for
the good guys?
----------------------------
SUBJ: Terribly realistic...
FROM: Lord Bolan  09/18/87   S#: 116104
I think one thing that many people are missing is  that Habitat is REALLY not
a game. It is an ENVIRONMENT. If you wish to play a game in this environment,
you could. If you wish to rob and murder, you can. Terribly life-like isn't
it?

I am not saying violence is good, but I think (like Salty said) it is a useful
education process. You will find yourself genuinely concerned about what part
of town you wander, what possessions you carry, who you associate with, do you
carry protection, how much money is safe to carry, can you defend yourself if
necessary etc... For a child or a young person, this is extremely useful.
Since death is relatively (but not completely) painless, a person experiences
a sense of loss but not like he would were a real person to die. Indeed, I
would not want that to happen to me, genuine death can be earth-shaking.
Avadeath is much less severe and I think even a child can tell the difference.
As for robbery, we all need to learn  the value of money at an early age. How
to save it, how to deal wisely, shop around for the best price etc...

Lastly, let me point out, that the element of danger will largely contribute
to the excitement found in Habitat. As a club host of the Phantasy Guild and a
Game Master as well, danger and suspense is the prime emotion we try to
cultivate, it makes the game exciting. I think the same is true about Habitat.
                      ** LB **
----------------------------
SUBJ: Points..
FROM: SkyLine     09/18/87   S#: 93529
Points go to both sides. As with any of us, I don't advocate mindless
violence, or theft. No thinking person does. But, I have pointed a loaded gun
at another human being, and I have pointed a game gun at another avatar in
Habitat.  Believe me, there is a difference.

Speaking only on Habitat, I would miss something if there weren't some element
of danger. The idea that no one is really going to lose -anything- except
graphic possessions allows us to permit certain activities that add interest
to the game. The fact that I might not 'survive' a particular adventure, I
believe, will make me a better participant. I'll be more aware, creative, and
hopefully, observant. For me, this will serve to retain my interest, and cause
me to come back for more. This is what we want the paying member to do. I feel
I'm not only helping to find the bugs, but also helping to judge the market
value of this online product. Whether or not we agree, most will be looking
for the elements of danger mentioned in some of the previous posts. I think
they need to be kept, weapons and all, potential thievery and all, for those
seeking them.
                            -SL-
**************************************************
SUBJ: Before it is dropped....
FROM: Blue Eyes   09/19/87   S#: 90640
While I see the points being made on both all sides...

I think that many of the "violent" and "unlawful" features of Habitat will
prove to be big problems.

From what I understand.. (and I am not an RPG expert by a long shot) the
Phantasy Guild and role playing games do include these elements..but under
control of a game master. (so I don't think that Habitat can be equated to a
role playing game)

Adventure games also include much of these elements.. but again.. someone has
control... the programmer or the player.

In Habitat, I haven't seen any evidence that there will be anyway to control
much of what could happen.

From a business standpoint...  maybe some members will want the options to
kill, hurt, or rob others, but I can't help thinking about the MANY that will
be upset by them.

I have been through many problem situations in PC... I know what it is like to
have control and not to have control in various situations with some of the
members  (and ABusers).

I think that there will have to be some control over some of the potential
situations.

Well... Sorry Onyx.. I just wanted to add my concern about the situation.
**************************************************
SUBJ: Mountains out of Molehills
FROM: Onyx        09/19/87   S#: 1056
Violence, thievery....

Games...

Real world or Game Envoirnnment?

Folks, while I personally abhor violence, and detest thieves, this vein of
posts has gotten way out of hand.

Greg, while I adore you and your ideals, I severely doubt that Habitat would
be either fun or financially profitable without these elements  of danger.  I
respect your ideals, but quite frankly, it has all gotten blown out of
proportion.

There -ARE- zones in Habitat in which weapons do not work.

You -CAN- always ghost out to escape being robbed or killed.

Now, I implore you all, can we just drop this, and move on to bigger and
better things?

 -=* Onyx *=-
----------------------------
SUBJ: Yea Onyx!!!
FROM: AndrewG2    09/19/87   S#: 1423
 ::clap::clap::clap::
----------------------------
SUBJ: Sure, let's just drop it
FROM: Del March   09/19/87   S#: 111552
After all, it's only a problem that a significant portion of us have concerns
about.  It's not like it's a thing that really matters to us.  We all, in one
way or another, support Q-Link.

When/if it goes public, what do we care if it becomes an even bigger problem
among an even larger group of people who don't necessarily support Q-Link?
These are the people who are going to pay to play.  And on a Habitat board
like this one (I assume there will be one), are they going to speak out about
this problem?  You bet they will.  And in much louder voices than ours.

So why work the problem out now?  We can just gloss over it as though it
wasn't there.  What do we care?

(BTW, I can't wait to hear a robbed player being told "Yes, but you could have
ghosted to avoid it.")
----------------------------
SUBJ: Frankly..
FROM: SkyLine     09/19/87   S#: 108963
I'm more than a little tired of walking around town, hiking the Back 40, and
looking at cactuses (cacti?) in the Desert. I'd consider getting robbed, shot
at, or blown away, a refreshing change. I understand that Habitat is far from
finished, and we're there to test what -is- there, but some of my enthusiasm
is beginning to wane.  If I interpret some of the comments on this board
correctly, some would reduce even what's there now. Sorry folks, but I for
one, am in need of the very things you'd like to see removed. I guess I'm a
frustrated adventurer in search of the danger, more than the prize.
                     -SkyLine-
**************************************************
SUBJ: It Happens, BUT....
FROM: Sir Jon     09/18/87   S#: 92876
in the real world.. (and even in most well designed games), there is some
recourse....

I was in the frustrating position of watching one avatar steal from another
avatar a few days ago...

It was EXTREMELY frustrating...

The thief was moving too fast to ID, or to catch..  There were NO POLICE or
authority to appeal to for help.  At least in the 'REAL' world, society looks
down upon and attempts to discourage stealing.  In Habitat, there is NOTHING
to discourage it and every reward for doing it. :\

If you thought we had hard times dealing with the QTerrorists in People
Connection, with QGUIDES watching over the area, what do you think will happen
when Habitat goes live with 'thousands' of areas and NO ONE to appeal to for
help!!!!

As to the argument that all that is being taken are electronic images, etc....
That is a crock!   The items I, or any avatar has taken the time to acquire
HAVE meaning & value!  I've spent hours exploring areas, traveling to distant
places to find or buy something that cannot be found easily.  This makes it
valuable to me in an emotional sense, and, had I been paying to use the
service, I'd be FURIOUS about the $$$$$$ I had spent (real world money) just
to have it all lost to some jerk who thinks it's 'cute' to rob or kill my
avatar!

If this kind of thing starts to become common, it will lead to lots of VERY
angry members.  I would like to see changes that allow SOME recourse to me
taken.  Some way to recover stolen valuables, and/or items lost when 'killed'
through no fault of your own.

Thanks for putting up with my 'RANTing'

(only kind of 'RANT' I've seen in a while)  ;)
**************************************************
SUBJ:  2 cents
FROM: DeanD       09/18/87   S#: 94633
First, after reading all the comments about WAR and PEACE in Habitat, I'd like
to agree with Greg.  I want the have *FUN* in Habitat, escape to it, rather
than to have to worry that every Avatar I meet is intent on stealing or
murder.  Right now this is NOT so bad, but when every- one has access to
this... well, I can just see bands of Roving HABITAT ANGELS!

Second, and to help vent my frustration, I've been so busy lately with other
QLINK activities AND "real world" WORK...that I haven't had TIME to go to
HABITAT...

ARRRRGGGGHHHHHH!  (the sound of HABI-WITHDRAWAL).  Thank you.  Sympathy cards
appreciated!  :D
----------------------------
SUBJ: :(
FROM: Soundman    09/18/87   S#: 48029
Get Well Soon Dean ;) See ya there soon !!!11
     Soundman l:)
**************************************************
SUBJ: Peace and Rewards
FROM: Greg P      09/18/87   S#: 96742
I have thought about this to some extent and would like to make an additional
proposal to the people at Habitat-LucasFilms/QLink.

I understand the purpose of the so-called "Role-Playing" games and that acts
of violence (unfortunately) appear to be an integral part of them.  Fine.

If an Avatar is battling a Monster, I can see the "need" for a "weapon".  This
is acceptable to me.

If an Avatar uses a weapon against another Avatar! Let them be ANATHEMA!
(condemned), that is to say, let the punishment merit the crime in that they
will be stripped of all fortunes and Turf-Less for a period of time. Perhaps
even force them to stay in the "ghost" state for a set period of time where
they can hurt no one.

I would like to see the Oracle reward acts of kindness and bravery (like
rescuing RJScott out of the woods for the umpteenth time! ;D).  Why not have a
listing of "The Most Adventurous"!!!

Now, I can see people clamoring to get on that list.  I know I would.
Personally, I am DYING to see what is beyond that darn "Under Construction"
sign! :D

I am sorry if I am irritating anyone about my feelings about weapons and
violence.  I am a Suicide/Crisis Intervention Counselor.  I see violence
almost every day.  I see mutilated children from abuse cases.  I see battered
women.  And, I see the same people...dead.

The thought that it is also here, in something as peachy keen (like that?) as
Habitat, *nauseates* me to no end.

Please disallow the ability of one Avatar to harm another.

Please, I beg you.
:')
----------------------------
SUBJ: Greg
FROM: Celebrindl  09/18/87   S#: 94496
I can see your point, and I respect your views.

However.. a "punishment" such as you are suggesting would, from a business
point of view (and we MUST remember that, all said and done, this IS a
business) a stripping of valuables for offenses, or forced "Ghost" mode would
only lose members. If they can't do anything, they certainly won't spend their
hard-earned (?) $.06 minute in there.

As for being made Turf-less for a period of time, last night was the first
I've been in my turf for ages..  so that wouldn't bother many of the more
Adventurous-type who are never at home anyway.
                    CeleAvatar
----------------------------
SUBJ: Self Defense Weapons Only
FROM: Laser Gyro  09/18/87   S#: 2004
I think the solution is simple: weapons should be only capable of self
defense.  Anyone remember the movie "Futureworld"? (OK, it wasn't a Lucasfilms
production.)  In the Western world there, they had REAL guns that were rigged
so that they could shoot the robot "bad guys", but they wouldn't fire at a
human.  Such "magic" weapons would seem appropriat in a PEACE LOVING place
like Habitat.
**************************************************
SUBJ: On ??FUN??
FROM: RJScott     09/19/87   S#: 120105
Welp, I've decided to become the first Habicluse. With all the raging
controvesy about stealing, killing, and other things I've decided to take off
on my own and ignore the rest of the Habiworld until things settle down a bit.

So, if you send me ESP and get no reply, I'm being a HABIHERMIT and as such I
won't be doing ESP.

Doing my own Habithing,
       RJAvatar
----------------------------
SUBJ: ControveRsy Even :\
FROM: RJScott     09/19/87   S#: 125557
----------------------------
SUBJ: See ya RJ
FROM: Soundman    09/20/87   S#: 106316
See ya have fun :)
**************************************************
SUBJ: Role Playing
FROM: Mysterio    09/19/87   S#: 70987
I wonder why so many people seem to equate "role playing" with "wholesale
slaughter". One theme I see repeated over and over is "well Habitat is a role
playing environment, and killing and thievery are vital parts of role
playing".

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought role playing was simply trying to think and act
in a personality different then your own. Is it necessary, for these games to
be fun, to create a character that exists simply to kill and steal?

If this is the case, I'm glad I don't participate in any of these games. I can
think of better uses for my imagination.
-Mysterio
----------------------------
SUBJ: Aye Aye Matey!
FROM: Og1         09/19/87   S#: 124206
Mysterio is right on course!

I've been sailing the high seas now for some time. And, (except for a stray
Dutch Merchant ship here and there), killing and stealing have never entered
my mind.

And..... errr... What??   Oh!

Sorry!   wrong game....
**************************************************
SUBJ: Throwing gasoline on the fire...
FROM: Chameleon   09/21/87   S#: 108299
Role-playing games don't HAVE to be full of mayhem and gore and thievery.  One
of the best I have is Below the Root, from Windham Classics. No one gets hurt.
If you do something stupid, you simply wake up in your home, having lost a
day. The villains imprison you, NOT kill you, and if you don't find your way
out soon, again you wake up at home. There is some theft, but you have to go
into the thieve's house first.  And it's still fun to play.  I think the zone
idea is good, but let's make it a very small area, with warning signs and a
fence around it.  Kind of an Avatar Alcatraz.
**************************************************
SUBJ: Zone Suggestion
FROM: Becky       09/20/87   S#: 7262
My solution to the raging controversy is to set up Zones..most of which are
active anyway.

In PC there are seperate 'rooms' for people with different tastes in inter-
tainment. ie:AL/BBS callers/Lobbys If you wish NOT to be robbed or killed then
stay away from the areas where these actions are permitted. Let Town be
Theft/Kill free (ie:Lobby) for all the less adventursome and we shop- aholics.
:>

Nothing should be FORCED on a person.  CHOICE is the only solution.
**************************************************
SUBJ: A long time ago...
FROM: Caterwaul   09/20/87   S#: 104043
during the Habitat Guild frenzy, when the Knights and MOB and CHAOS were
wandering around telling other people about when they would be avatars and run
organizations that delt with stealing, wars, and other destructive purposes.
During this time one more group was created, called LOTA, which stands for
Lords of the Abyss.  Among the members of this group were groups for Thieves,
Mappers/Archivers, Warriors, and a few other factions.  What was their purpose
you might ask?  Oh, not like the other groups.  They were to act like a police
force of sorts while occasionally going on adventures themselves.  The
thieves' would steal only from people who we had received complaints about,
the wariors would only kill those who killed others, and the Mappers would
give out information about how to get around.

Although most of the other HabiGuilds no longer survive the ideas that LOTA
was run by seem to be still living.  Since we all are getting this for free,
why not help out our fellow avatars?  WE basically are the people who are
supposed to help MAKE things fun for people on Q.. If we just sit back and let
people get away without fear of getting caught and punished, then we're
defeating our own ideals.

I am NOT saying that thieving or killing should be removed from Habitat, just
that there does need to be some protection against it to deter them from
stealing or killing.  If there are any of you who officially want to be on the
roster for LOTA, Mail me.  And if there's anyone who has any complaints, mail
me.  I'll see to it myself, or talk to someone else about it.  Remember...

"Where the Oracle Can't Help, the Avatar must!"
   Caterwaul
----------------------------
SUBJ: Hmmm
FROM: AndrewG2    09/20/87   S#: 107817
Cater, are you related to Charles Bronsen at all???? =:)